Jordan Peterson takes on VICE News (Missing Sections)

From Vice’s Facebook upload of the interview. This contains some of the missing sections, cut out from Vice’s main upload (

Jay Caspian Kang works for Vice News and the New York Times Magazine.

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here’s a question well I’d post here’s a question but let’s have a real question can men and women work together in the workplace yes I how do you do it how do you know because I work with a lot of for me right well it’s been happening for what 40 years and and things are deteriorating very rapidly at the moment in terms of the relationships between men and women it’s like we don’t know if men and women can work together forty years ago I would have been I don’t know if it if I was a white man I would have it Jacqueline’s boss and I could have done whatever I wanted right and that there would be almost no recourse that the that a woman who’s working under me would have now they have some recourse I mean it’s a is that it it was recourse back then to you could take people to the police you take it do you think that was happening a lot I mean like I know a dreadful thing to have to go to the police I guess essentially assaulted if you feel like like there’s a reduction in harm right that don’t think things are bad so you feel like right now the atmosphere in corporate workplace is the exact same that it was 40 years ago no but I’m not sure I’m not saying that it’s any better it’s not any better well maybe it is yes yeah not to ask you to sort of prove a negative but what I think that there is plenty of evidence if you look at all the stories that are coming out you do not feel like any of the stories that you’ve heard about what Hollywood is like do you feel like that’s not evidence ed this is a problem evidence that Hollywood is a problem yeah yeah but when I look at Hollywood all these people coming out of Hollywood talking about how sexual misbehavior is a problem and I think people in Hollywood are talking about that they’ve been capitalizing on sexual misbehavior for like a hundred years but that I mean look those are unrelated and are anyways yeah like they’re there you know you as a professor should know like about correlation and causation like you’re you’re basically saying well you know there have been movies with sex in it therefore a PA on the set of a movie of course should be expected to be sexually harassed no I’m saying those two are those two our separate worlds in any sort of pure logical sense like your that is just a classic mix-up of correlation why are they separate worlds we don’t know how to draw the boundaries because well here’s well here’s the question we could like any movie that has like if you talk about sex in your in your classroom or if you about sort of sexual behavior in their classroom and another classroom does not talk about sexual behavior at all you feel like your classroom would have a higher chance or a higher incidence rate of sexual no Psalter right no but I would say that if I if I if I was part of an organization that built entire dozens of careers on sexual provocative Ness I would be very careful about like waiving the ethical flag in the sexual wars so you think Hollywood doesn’t exploit sex hasn’t the feminists been saying that for 30 years the entire entertainment industry does nothing but exploit women sexually is that true or not and if it is true then aren’t they contributing to the problem and if they’re contributing to the problem where is all the ethical that you’re you’re arguing at that point that Hollywood is one sort of totemic idea that it is one sort of that a woman who works in entertainment must then like pledge allegiance to this idea of a sort of totemic Hollywood and not come out and give her story like they’re saying I’d like if that said she’s like somehow complicit in all of it with the degree to which we’re all complicit in what’s going on is unspecified I said already you know we don’t know how to have an adult conversation about sex it’s not surprising it’s not the least bit surprising so like so then what is it then like cos you’re that it’s this seems to be like the sort of collectivist thing that you rail against you know you’re saying that Hollywood is one thing and that Hollywood made its own bed and therefore Hollywood should not speak about this issue because they’re the ones that were pushing this agenda no it isn’t that they shouldn’t speak about it or that they should be not definitely about it 42 they should speak carefully about it do you feel like they’re not feeding carefully absolutely they’re not speaking carefully no not in the least what what is out of control about it well trial by public opinion I suppose is part of what’s out of control about it child by public opinion do you think that’s what’s happening yeah to some degree sure it’s very easy for people to come forward with accusations and demolish someone’s reputation that’s trial by public opinion so we don’t have it we don’t have any conversation about the other side of the of the coin you don’t think women manipulate men sexually for advancement in the workplace do you not do you not think that there has been any sort of pushback against chances me to move in at all yeah if there’s been something okay so then then what do you mean we don’t have conversations about the other side it seems like every time I read any sort of publication it’s split more or less 50/50 and actually increasingly more towards like maybe this thing is out of control it seems like that narrative certainly out there yeah true it is it has started to emerge the last couple of weeks that’s true yeah so then I don’t understand I guess I don’t understand the question exactly well my question is essentially that like when when you is there sexual harassment in the workplace yes should it stop that would be good if it did that’d be good will it well not at the moment it won’t because we don’t know what the rules are do you think men and women can work in the workplace together I don’t know without sexual harassment we’ll see well how many years will it take for men and women working in a workplace together more than four in a sense more this Friday mm-hmm we’re new at this we’re new at this absolutely we’re completely new at it it’s only been a couple of generations that’s part of the problem right is that we don’t know what the rules are like what here’s a rule how about no makeup in the workplace why would that from who why should you wear makeup in the workplace oh isn’t that sexually provocative no it’s not no what is it then what’s the purpose of makeup it’s some people would like to just put on makeup why I don’t know why why do you make your lips red because they turn red during sexual arousal that’s why why do you put Rouge on your cheeks same reason it’s your argument I’m not saying that you shouldn’t wear makeup no I’m not saying that but you’re saying that that I’m saying we didn’t do our makeup in the workplace that they have sexualized themselves in a way that’s what makeups for would Jesus that’s self-evident that why else would you wear it though let me mean when women put on makeup in the workplace when they make their lips red when they sort of put on Rouge right that when they enter that workplace if the man notices that that there is sort of a illicit Ness with with which the woman has said I am going to sexualize myself in the workplace and therefore whatever comes will come no I didn’t say the last part of that so I didn’t say so whatever comes will come but I think the issue of complicit how about high heels I mean look how about high heels what do they throw out how you what about them they’re they’re too exaggerated sexual attractiveness that’s what high heels do they tilt your they tilt your pelvis forward so your hips stick oh that’s what they do and they tighten up your calf muscles there are sexual display now I’m not saying that people shouldn’t use sexual displays in the workplace I’m not saying that but I am saying that that is what they’re doing and that is what they’re doing so what is it relevance then to like sexual harassment in the workplace then if you can’t make well the Maoists put everybody in uniforms to stop that sort of thing from happening men wear uniforms that’s a way why they wear suits I guess I’m not seeing this sort of coherence of the of the thought that you’re putting together then because what are the rules that govern sexual interactions between men and women in the workplace yes the answer is we don’t know right so I’m throwing out some questions how about makeup oh that’s okay is it why why is it okay well I would think that there is certain ownership over one’s body that they can take without how about negligees well looking too far if you had a workplace with negligees I think that there would be some sort of standard idea that maybe that would be a sexualized okay so there’s some line between lipstick and negligees though yeah one across okay fair enough where exactly is the line well I think that you know much like Justice Scalia said with pornography it’s something that you can feel or that you know it when when you see it I would say that that me that sort but it you know what’s confusing to me you know and I really do just mean this in sort of a debate sense which is that like like these are the big collective ideas there there are things that you feel like are sort of derived through through evolution that that people do come to a consensus that is meaningful I don’t think that anyone would say that wearing makeup to the office is in some ways like sexually deviant or something like that or that it’s inviting a sort of atmosphere of sexuality within the world I would say that you second part sure it’s exactly what it’s doing okay why else would you wear lipstick complete the thought for me then because that’s the part that I like for you to do like complete the thought oh I’m not saying that women shouldn’t do it and I’m also not saying that it should be banned but I’m saying that you’re absolutely naive if you don’t think that that has anything to do with sexuality or sexual her does it have something to a sexual harassment in the workplace I don’t know because I don’t know what the rule should be that govern the interactions between men and women in the work man I don’t people be allowed to flirt in the workplace do you feel that let’s just yes or no question do you feel like women wearing makeup in the workplace contributes to sexual harassment in the workplace sure it contributes and so what should be done about that you as a clinician who believes that there should be prescriptive ideas that don’t mandate behavior but that will guide behavior I don’t know I don’t know what the answer to that is do you feel like we mentioned where if do you feel like a serious woman who does not want sexual harassment in the workplace do you feel like if she wears makeup in the workplace that she is somewhat being critical yeah okay I do think that okay let’s remark I don’t see how you could not think that it’s like makeup is sexual display that’s what it’s for say well I want to look more attractive like what do you mean by attractive exactly so then what is a better outcome for you then a workplace with no sexual harassment where women wear uniforms and don’t wear makeup much like the mallets like you were saying or a sort of freer workplace in which sexual harassment is an inevitability because women wear high heels and makeup well I don’t say that sexual harassment is inevitability because women wear high heels and makeup I didn’t say that or that it is more likely I said that it it contributes to the sexual ization of the workplace what’s the difference between more likely in that okay more likely I’ll go with that yeah more likely right okay okay so which one do you prefer I don’t prefer either of them Oh which one of those two would I prefer yeah oh I prefer the one where people have the freedom and so within that what so we’ve gotten to that point that people should have freedom to wear makeup right but that that will inevitably lead to not inevitably that it is more likely that sexual harassment happens in the workplace does isn’t that sort of saying that if women were like I was that not saying that if women wear makeup in the in the that isn’t what I said like you you’re pushing it past what I said by a substantial margin I said that we don’t understand really that govern the that interactions in the in between men and women in the workplace right we don’t understand the rules and so I was pushing a limit case that’s what I was doing I wasn’t saying women shouldn’t wear makeup no I was saying there should be a question raised about that and there is often I mean companies have dress codes let’s say you know and they have a reason for that but but the fact that we got tangled up in this conversation is an indication of exactly how difficult it is to have a reasonable reasonable conversation about exactly what rules should govern the interactions between men and women work I would objected that a little bit because I think the reason why this conversation has been difficult is because like there are certain things where you’ll just punt and you’ll say I’m not saying that and you’ll try and be very hyper specific and now look there are examples of that where I feel like you were right like I feel like the Kathy Newman article or the Kathy Newman interview I felt like a lot of what you’re what that she put words in your mouth I don’t feel like I’m doing that in fact I’ve been extremely careful not I’m definitely not accusing you okay so I’m just saying that these sorts of conversations are difficult not that you’re making it unduly difficult okay I don’t think you are sure so I I guess look this is a this is a test case right like we are not here to say like Jordan Peterson believes that this is true we’re talking about a specific test case like we agree not you arguing that that makeup of sexualized high heels are sexualized right when they enter a workplace the workplace has a higher preponderance of becoming sexualized yes how is that how do we not then take the next step and say that ergo if we want to get rid of sexual harassment in the workplace that your belief is that women should not wear high heels or makeup in the work oh because there’s other potential solutions people could swell but you could allow for a certain amount of sexual tension and not act on it in a reprehensible manner I mean look if let’s say you’re married to someone right partner okay you go to a party do you ever flirt I mean I don’t go to parties oh okay do you ever flirt at all okay but do you know how but that isn’t know okay well good well look look one of the things that’s enjoyable about the interactions between men and women even if you’re married is an element of flirtatiousness that can underscore the interaction okay you don’t want to get rid of that it’s too tyrannical to get rid of that but you’re playing with fire you have to know that you’re playing with fire and so there’s gonna be some sexual provocative Ness in the workplace let’s say both ways but you’re playing with fire and you need to know what the rules are we don’t know what the rules are okay how about what if I said it is okay to flirt with your coworker from time to time you know don’t don’t grab them in the privates well that seems you know I think we could agree that that might be a reasonable start right but then of course you still have the problem of exactly what constitutes acceptable flirting do you feel like the majority of people then who are sort of in this me tube movement right now who have been speaking out yeah I mean do you really think all of them are not a large saying that you can’t flirt at all you know or do you think most of them are saying you just don’t grab me in the privates because I would I just ask somebody who also has read about this who studied yeah quite a bit he was followed it very intensely it really does seem like the messages like hey like you know don’t pull your robe off don’t grab me and no I think it’s worse than that you do yeah well look at what happened with NBC now you’re supposed to report your co-workers if you suspect them of romantic entanglements that’s been true about American and I mean yours that is one symptom but this is a policy now it is it’s a policy yeah one one company about this is industry-wide yeah it’s a it’s a response to it but it’s a bad response you said like is it only about not being grabbed it’s like no it’s not only about that if it was only about not being grabbed would you be okay with it well I’m not in favor of people being involuntarily grabbed I’m not in favor of sexual harassment or sexual assault and not in the least I don’t I think I already told you what I think I’m a sexual conservative sure I don’t think people should have sex on the first date I think they should be very careful with sex right so I’m not in the camp of let’s grab each other under the mistletoe at the Christmas party because what the hell I’m not in that camp I’m in the be bloody careful camp and and don’t step out of line and don’t like don’t like have designs on your secretary when you hire her I think that’s all appalling but I don’t think we’re capable of having an adult conversation about it not as a culture not even a bit let’s say that the result of all of this of the mutant movement is that perhaps there are some policies which might strike aids sort of civil libertarians such as yourself or somebody who believes in individual freedom as a bit oppressive but that women stop getting grabbed in the privates I don’t know how this is the collateral damage from that is that not a win is that not a win for somebody who doesn’t think that women should be grabbing the private side I don’t think that’s what’ll happen well what why because I don’t think that the ideas that are being put forth have the kind of power that will transform people’s behavior in a reasonable manner okay that’s very vague can you just know it you’ve essentially said well I don’t believe that they that the ideas are good they’re not concrete enough they’re not concrete enough I mean I think that almost every big media media organization has specifically rewritten their policies in the past few months to you with very concrete examples of things that are not okay I mean like do you not think that those are concrete I know well maybe it’s possible I don’t know the policies well enough to be certain my sense generally is that like what would you say it outraged mob activism generally doesn’t translate very well into intelligent policy but possible that ugly to change we’ll see

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